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Author Topic: Ration Balancers  (Read 1655 times)

gallatingal

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2014, 10:47:47 am »

When I worry about the quality of my grass hay I feed Standlee Timothy/Alfalfa pellets, or just timothy pellets for the boys. They think they are getting grained :D
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OldnOrnery

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2014, 11:44:47 am »

Hay analysis information by Equi-Analytical. They compile their results under "COMMON FEED PROFILES."
http://www.equi-analytical.com

KC, horses are thought to produce stomach acid 24/7. They are built to consume little bits of grass steadily all day and night. That doesn't mean they need to eat 24 hours a day, but they do need something working in their guts. This has nothing to do with Cushings or IR, but Cushings and IR make it more important.

PPID/Cushings is caused by an enlargement of part of the pituitary gland. The pituitary gland is the master gland linked to the major metabolic glands (thyroid, hypothalamus, adrenals). When the growth/tumor causes the over-secretion of pituitary hormones, it routinely affects the entire metabolic system system of the horse. This is thought to start in the mid-teens of susceptible horses, and it takes several years for symptoms like the long shaggy coat to appear.

Longterm secretion of cortisol by the adrenals eventually affects the horse's insulin/glucose interaction. That is because cortisol increases the release of glucose by the liver and yet also indirectly reduces muscle cells' sensitivity to insulin (the hormone that facilitates the cells' use of glucose.) When the horse has high levels of insulin circulating in the blood in response to blood glucose, it is considered Insulin-resistant. High levels of circulating insulin has affects on the body besides the use of glucose within the body's cells. One effect is thought to be laminitis.

So…to answer KC's question, horses with IR, with or without PPID, benefit from slow feeding to keep levels of glucose input from hay at a slow and steady rate. Many but not all PPID horses become or are already IR. Ideally, IR horses are fed forage ( hay) with low sugar AND low starch, like their ancestral diet.

Feeding starch (like from grains) is harmful to IR horses because equine digestion converts starch close to 100% into blood glucose. Ironically, the "sugars" in hay convert 50% or less into blood glucose. There is a glycemic index for horse feeds, but this is in its infancy. The glycemic index of oats was used as the reference The glycemic index of oats: 100%, corn = 117%, barley = 101%, oats + oil = 86%, wheat = 71%, carrots = 51%, timothy hay = 32% and beet pulp = 1%. This means that hay with 6% simple sugars has half the glucose spike of 6% starch (say from seed heads in the hay).

Exercise has a complicated and beneficial effect on our horses' metabolism. Hard working horses (that is defined as a LOT of work many days a week with sustained high heart rates, like high level dressage horses and endurance horses)  with IR can handle grain when their cells are glucose-starved after exercise. That means they must be fed within one hour after exercise (like on the track!). The amount fed is moderate, like a pound.


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rydincolor

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2014, 08:35:38 am »

Another vote here for no grain to be fed, after looking into it and talking to feed/nutrition "experts" .  My pleasure standing around waiting for spring fat fluffy mare gets a couple cups standlee hay pellets and a carrot and a complete supplement 1/4 cup? so I can look her over at feed time.  And hay----.  I believe for the amount of grain most horses are fed they would not get whatever vitamins or nutrients they need from it anyway. 
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KysaSD

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2014, 11:54:54 am »

I have been asked to move this thread to the Keeper section, which I will do with permission from the original poster.
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OldnOrnery

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2014, 12:08:21 pm »

Renee, if I were feeding an easy keeper gaited horse, I'd want to evaluate how much I ride and my horse's body condition and then build a diet around grass hay.

So-called poor quality hay covers a lot of ground! What's the quality problem? Most pleasure horses get more than enough energy and protein from just average quality hay. I'm assuming your hay isn't moldy, dusty or dirty. Hard working horses (and I mean hard working) have higher dietary needs that may require "better quality" hay, in that they need more protein, more energy, more calcium, more phosphorus. Trace mineral needs aren't necessarily greater, tho.

If your hay has too high fiber, that's a different kind of quality problem and can cause gas, bloating and diarrhea. FORCO can help a bit.

Even in a boarding situation, you can get a general idea of your hay by doing one hay analysis. Regional grass hay actually does have a general profile. Some parts of the county have lots of calcium. Some have lots of manganese. Every part has tons of iron. Never add iron.

Then see if you can make do with a good commercial  mineral supplement. Places that do this are HorseTech (see http://horsetech.com/high-point-grass.html and http://horsetech.com/popular-customs.html  and Uckele Equine (see http://equine.uckele.com/vitamin-mineral/equi-base-grass.html ).

In California, California Trace makes a trace mineral supplement. It's nice to NOT have to worry about a bunch of trace minerals, all important to health but annoying to measure and weigh out one by one - copper, zinc, manganese, iodine, and selenium. But trace minerals aren't the whole story. It's just as important to have a reasonable major mineral balance: calcium, phosphorus and magnesium. I personally wouldn't want to add one or another without knowing the whole picture. Phosphorus is actually the starting point because it's the supplemented mineral horses like the least. So I balance around the optimum phosphorus, adding calcium (because our soils and hays are deficient ) to a proportion and last balancing magnesium to calcium.

The last thing is to add 2 tablespoons of table salt (uniodized if you add iodine in trace minerals), half a cup of ground flax for essential fatty acids (deficient in hay), and 1200 IU vitamin E in oil (deficient in hay).

I mix my own minerals and vitamins. It's just barely a heaping cup, including the ground flax. I feed it wet to the consistency of mush on a bed of ½ lb. soaked Ontario Dehydrated (Dehy) Timothy Balance Hay Cubes distributed by Triple Crown. My mares don't ever get sweets or grain (aside from ground flax), so this is their big treat. Every once in a while I tweak their diet because of a hay change, and they object. I just sprinkle a couple of teaspoons for whole flax seed over the top or wait to make changes when they also get a once a month low sugar psyllium pellet which they LOVE. After a week of psyllium, they're usually good with the change.
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NoBite

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M10 vs Enrich Plus
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2015, 08:14:30 am »


2.  I feed McCauley's M-10 Balancer to my severely IR horse and also my horse with grain and soy allergies, as the M-10 is also grain and soy-free.  It's around $24/50 lb bag.  http://www.mccauleybros.com/supplements/products/m10.aspx?catID=m10

To my knowledge, these are the only two RB-type products that are grain-free and also have the added benefit of being soy-free.

Hope this helps:)
Judy


Judy - I am quoting a portion of your original post to ask you specifically about McCauley's M10 versus Purina Enrich Plus.


Recently, I went to a local feed store for a completely unrelated reason and became aware that they sell McCauley products. I came away with a data sheet on M10. Since you feed it (or did when you posted in this thread originally!) I'd like your opinion. M10 is a 10% minimum protein, Enrich Plus is 32% minimum. Any concerns either way? M10 has added iron, Enrich Plus does not. 


I am feeding one IR horse and two geldings that get weekend riding. Have fed Enrich Plus to all three for a long time, about one pound a day, split into two feedings, per horse. I supplement the IR horse with Health-E and Heiro.


There is a considerable difference in the cost between these two products. But, cost has not been my guide so far. If I change, I don't want to sacrifice the health of my horses for a few dollars. Your thoughts are appreciated, as well as anyone else feeding M10 that cares to comment. Thanks!
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Legs, MFT, 1999   Bandit, TWH, 2005   Smokey, TWH, 2010

OldnOrnery

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2015, 01:38:43 pm »

I'm not Judi, but I took a look at both Purina Enrich Plus and McCauley's M10 assuming you're feeding mature horses. They are virtually identical in terms of nutritional content, even rate of feeding except for the amount of crude protein. A lot of the little things listed as Vitamins & Minerals (like B vitamins) in McCauley's M10 aren't in the guaranteed analysis and aren't things horses need. You can disregard them.

Of the major nutrients, the primary difference is Crude protein. Mature horses on a maintenance routine don't need a lot of extra protein.... until they do. I have never had a good quality hay that is deficient in protein for the purposes of a horse getting only casual/weekend riding. Protein in grass is usually higher than hay, assuming good quality pasture. We’re in extreme drought in the West, and the available grass hays have been lower quality and lower in protein than normal, so remember I said “good quality hay” and “good quality pasture.”

Extra protein becomes essential (a) when the horse is in regular work (not a weekend warrior) and (b) when the horse is aged (roughly over 15 or 16). Horses in regular work have additional nutritional needs that these feeds might not supply. Aged horses need more protein because they don't digest/ferment as well. It's easy to supply - -  a little alfalfa if they tolerate it, a scoop or two of Uckele's Tri-Amino or half a cup of split peas. Split peas are cheap as a protein, $26 for 50 lbs out here where everything is 40% more. Split peas rebuilt muscle lost to atrophy in my 23 yo mare better than Tri-Amino or whey protein isolate at a fraction of the price. The extra protein in a pound of Enrich Plus isn't so much that it overloads protein for a maintenance horse. Some nutritionists like horses to have a protein cushion, and I have no argument with that if the calories don’t make the horse fat.

Minor differences: I'm not sure there are any besides the nature of the ingredients and  the addition of salt in McCauley's M10. Assuming you feed a pound, the amount of salt is insignificant, nowhere close to a horse's needs. Ignore it. It's probably added for flavor.

Note that there is no Guaranteed Analysis of iron and manganese in McCauley's. That does NOT mean much. Every one of the major ingredients probably adds iron and manganese because they exist in just about every food fed to horses. The fact Purina Enrich Plus does not list them doesn't mean they aren't present. Federal feed labeling is highly technical, and excluding iron from the guaranteed analysis may be a regulatory thing. Iron deficiency in mature horses do NOT exist absent a major loss of blood, so try to minimize the amount of iron. Horses often get 2, 3 or 5 times the amount of iron they need from forage. This is not a benefit.

Two essential nutrients might not be covered in either supplement: magnesium and iodine. Iodine is an essential trace mineral that horses need in tiny amounts, sort of like selenium in that the amount is minuscule but a deficiency can be catastrophic. I'm guessing they don't add it because people give their horses mineral blocks instead of feeding them salt.

Magnesium probably isn't included because the bare minimum amount is generally covered by forage (hay or pasture). That doesn't mean it's the optimal amount of magnesium, especially for an IR horse.

If your horses's forage is hay, not pasture, then the diet needs supplemental Vitamin E and Omega-3 fatty acids. I give my horses 2000 IU in Vit. E capsules with oil in them, not glycerin. Half a cup of stabilized ground flax supplies the Omega 3 fatty acids.

Broken record data: Major minerals (calcium, phosphorus and magnesium, major because horses need a lot of them) and trace minerals (essential and powerful but needed in tiny quantities) vary enormously based on soil chemistry where the hay is grown or the pasture is eaten. This variability isn't something a bagged balancer can address nation wide. That’s why forage balancers that are calibrated to regional deficiencies are a good choice when they are available. Please read about nutritional diseases in horses. http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/management_and_nutrition/nutrition_horses/nutritional_diseases_of_horses.html

If you remember one thing about equine nutrition, try to remember this: minimum nutrition is not necessarily optimal nutrition for the long life of the horse.
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kckc

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2015, 01:54:23 pm »

split peas?   what type  of pea?
would you feed the peas as well as the balancer?  yes, I have aged horses... thanks for all the interesting info!
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OldnOrnery

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2015, 02:50:26 pm »

Pisum sativum is the botanical name. Yellow or green split peas. Some places call them Canadian peas. Be sure to make sure they are split. Ask at the feed store. They'll find them. Obviously they won't be useful for a horse with dental problems. 

They are highly digestible, more so than the crude protein in hay, so effectively your horse is getting more protein. And you don't have to be worried about starch content. Split peas are considered a resistant starch, meaning the body doesn't process it like a starch into glucose but instead treats it like fiber, so they have a low glycemic load. They have lots of different amino acids, which is probably helpful in making sure the diet covers  limiting amino acids. Click for the detail under protein
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/4353/2

If you know your hay is really deficient in protein, you can feed a cup or more, tho I'd start slowly with half a cup.
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kckc

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2015, 03:19:52 pm »

well, I've called 2 places and got nowhere.  Don't carry, don't know how or where to order... seemed uninterested... *sigh*   found some online at $15 for 5lbs but shipping has to be estimated.    can I just use the ones in the grocery store?   thanks for the info !
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 03:23:14 pm by kckc »
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NoBite

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2015, 04:39:33 pm »

OldnOrnery - I will also have this horse on some beet pulp pellets (soaked) with some alfalfa pellets (soaked) tossed in. Would the alfalfa pellets add a bit of protein?
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Legs, MFT, 1999   Bandit, TWH, 2005   Smokey, TWH, 2010

OldnOrnery

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2015, 07:00:57 pm »

Yes, alfalfa is a great protein source, and beet pulp adds protein, too. Split peas have more protein, pound for pound, than either. That's a function of higher % crude protein, higher % of dry matter, and higher digestibility. IOW, it's digestible protein dense.
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KAB

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2015, 04:06:01 pm »

John tell me about your results with Heiro please.
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Kathy South Florida, Paso Fino lover

kckc

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2015, 04:25:03 pm »

Ok I found a feed store that can order split peas for me... really not any cheaper than buying in the store?   $85- $89 for 50lbs.  choices are Alaska,Wando and Green Arrow.   anyone buying it cheaper?
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OldnOrnery

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Re: Questions on Easy Keeper Fox Trotter mare
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2015, 10:46:29 pm »

Not a good deal, you're right. Did they price feed grade, not food grade? My feed store sold me 50 lbs for $26.
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