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Author Topic: The story of Rose  (Read 2382 times)

Barb CO

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2016, 08:27:30 pm »

I imagine I should post my point of view here too. :-) First off, yes I will take Rose back. That was the original agreement and anyway I really like that mare.
In reply to some of the other thoughts - she was raised in a herd on a ranch. When I bought her she was down here in the valley in a pasture with another horse. I did not observe any issues between them but then again, I mostly saw her not wanting to be caught. At my place she was alone but near the other horses. A couple times I had Sunshine tied up to one of her fence panels and they got along fine and shared a pile of hay under the fence. She trailered beside him peacefully without a head divider between them. She would eat out of his hay bag as well as her own but there was no aggression. I have a trailer camera so I am quite sure of that. At Nola's place she seemed timid with the other horses. She was scared when Clementine reached over the fence panels to her. So no indications at all of unreasonable aggression towards other horses.

She is jumpy but my impression was always that she was scared of the things that people might do, not scared of things themselves. She was very comfortable in her pen at my house that was the closest to the front of the property. When she heard a dog in the brush she was curious, not scared. Most of my other horses are not that good in that pen. She was not scared when I did things with her that hadn't been "poisoned" by previous handling. I could rub her tummy and her udder area for example - but it scared her if I touched her legs.

She had soreness in her lower back which we were all aware of. She liked it when I rubbed that area. I asked April and she said that Rose initially enjoyed it when she did too but then didn't want it done anymore.

I've verified with Kysa that Rose is getting magnesium in her supplements. She was on pasture all summer prior to my picking her up and I know there was alfalfa out there so I don't suspect any kind of diet sensitivity.

So two different thoughts so far. One is pain - whether an ovarian cyst or something else that is causing aggression. At first I thought her aggression to the other horses might be a form of "resource guarding" because it happened when April was around but she escalated to being aggressive to the other horses even with no one near. So that pretty much rules out resource guarding. But does leave pain as a possibility.

My second thought is that I know on the ranch they used catch pens and the horses were roped to catch them. She was also in a small pen when she was weaned and was handled somewhat then - not sure if by roping at that time. I thought there was the possibility that being put in the small pen with Lila and then loaded in the trailer triggered memories of the handling she had previously. I don't believe she was necessarily abused but I do believe the handling was rougher than she could understand or tolerate (and rougher than anything I would be comfortable with). So possibly this triggered some sort of emotional stress reaction.

I do know that horses can behave differently in different environments. Differently enough to make people think someone must have lied about the horse's previous behavior. So it's a possibility that something in her environment that we will never know is triggering this behavior. But I wouldn't want to rule out the possibility of physical pain either.

So that is what I know and the theories that have come to mind. Right now the plan is to get her the end of October, weather permitting. I think I will take Sage along for the trip and hopefully they will bond during the long drive home. It would be nice if they could  share a pen for the winter. If not I can make a place for her to be alone but beside the others. Sage is quite an alpha mare so it's hard to say how they will get along. And I will let Rose hang out here and see how things go. By that point she'll have had an awful lot of changes in just a few months so I want her to have a chance to settle here over the winter. How much I handle her or what I do with her will just depend on how she acts. If I need to we will have her checked by a vet either at Kysa's or after she gets here.

So perhaps when she gets back here I will start a journal and post updates of how she does. I really, really liked this horse so I'm very optimistic.
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Barb CO

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2016, 10:06:21 pm »

Another example I just thought of regarding Rose's fears - I thought she was afraid of fly spray but she was really afraid of my moving the bottle of fly spray towards her. Being sprayed didn't bother her but she didn't trust the object in my hand.
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Barb CO

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2016, 10:09:37 pm »

Rose the morning before we left for SD.
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vruste

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2016, 07:07:41 am »

We have a chiro coming to Brookings the 14th if you're interested....just a btw.

I would wonder about a trigger too Barb.  I had a mare for quite a few years who was always easy to catch--never a problem.  Left for a weekend and had someone doing chores for me.  I know the guy wasn't doing anything stupid or intentional, but when I returned I couldn't catch that mare.  I happened to have a vet appt and couldn't catch her in almost an hour time and told the vet we'd reschedule.  She did slowly start to come around but was never super easy to catch after that.  All he did is come out and feed.  He didn't catch any horses...nothing.  I don't know what triggered her--maybe because he's a smoker and smelled different.  Maybe because he's a man.  Never did figure it out.
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Barb CO

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2016, 08:42:56 am »

Val and I also talked about it maybe just being too many moves to quickly for Rose. To my place, to Nola's for 2 nights, to Kysa's and then to a new pasture. A lot of horses do fine but maybe it was just too much too fast for her.

Anyway it's ok, I'm excited to get Rose back. Tentatively she'll come home the weekend of Oct 29-30 - weather permitting. If need be she can stay at Kysa's all winter which is an offer that is greatly appreciated. But if I can I would rather get her back here and let her settle in and do a little work with her over the winter whenever I have time.
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Herecomestheson

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2016, 05:23:58 pm »

Rose is beautiful!!   :)   Im so glad you bought her and I hope it all works out well. dee   
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Cassidy

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2016, 07:46:54 am »

I've not gone back to look at all that was done with Rose but was following, just forgetful with so much.  Since so much happened in such a short time to a sensitive horse have you considered a possible ulcer?  If so I'd skip worrying about doing a scope and get her started on Gastroguard or the the generic.  I think you can get Ulcergard without a prescription.  Per my vet: Signs may include poor performance, pack pain, general irritability, girthiness, recurrent colic, weight loss, poor appetite, loose manure or diarrhea and poor hair coat.  Since Rose didn't like her back rubbed that might be her sign.  Sorry if this has already been brought up.  She sure is a pretty girl.
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Chris, S.W. Michigan

KysaSD

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2016, 07:57:19 am »

Rose is currently alone, which I don't like, but I cannot afford to have any of my horses kicked or injured.  Or me. 
She does look over the fence and call to the horses she can see.
And I can still see in her eyes and facial expressions, the war between fear and trust.  It flips back and forth many times in a second.  Here, I see little to no progress.  WE have learned to deal with Rose, but her attitude to us has not changed.  We can catch her, but it is always in a corner. 
Barb is taking her back, but she needs to ride in a two horse trailer.  We have never gotten her to load in one.  I will set up a two horse inside my round pen panels, with food inside and see if she can learn the trailer is okay,
We have two weeks to get her oKay with this.

I do hope that a winter of routine will get her more okay with people.  But I also wonder if Rose needs more expert handling.  Barb lives near and helps out at a rescue that takes in horses and seriously puts training on them, evaluates them.  That might be Rose's best bet.
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Kysa, South Dakota, 2 Mountain Horses, and a Mini, yes, I am crazy!

misstux

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2016, 08:24:51 am »

Kysa is she food oriented? If so, try clicker training. Click and treat for theslightest try.  Charge the clicker befor by clicking immediately followed by a treat before starting the actual trailer work.
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KysaSD

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2016, 08:43:01 am »

Maybe someday....but right now, the click of a clicker word send her skittering away.
Even the wind picking up my hair will send her skittering away.  Approach and retreat is extremely slow, it takes 30-45 minutes just to halter her.
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Kysa, South Dakota, 2 Mountain Horses, and a Mini, yes, I am crazy!

foxtrotter

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2016, 10:57:29 am »

  Kysa,
    Rose sounds similar to Shiloh.   Shiloh wasn't nearly as skittish though. I tried the slow approaches, that really didn't work that well.   The method that really changed her and is why I ended up keeping her was the Clinton Anderson round penning and ground work.   It was hard for me to do this part, but when she would be out in an open area she would run when I approached her.   I ended up putting her in a smaller area, and if she would run, I would take the lunge whip and make her run, and I mean run.  No, I did abuse her, or hit her, she is much too fast for that!     She realized very quickly that it was much easier to let me approach her, even now if I happen to walk nearby and startle her, she will turn to run and the turn around and stop and then come to me.   None of this was an overnight fix,  using the lunge whip mentioned above was done only after alot of ground work etc.   I sometimes think I waited to long to do that, as she seems to trust me so much more now then she ever has.
  All that being said, Shiloh will never be the calm quiet Mountain horse every one talks about.   But, she has come to trust me, and will go places and do things with me that would have freaked her out the first years.
   She will always be alert whether she is in her stall, pasture or where ever she may be, it is just her nature.
  Wishing Barb and Rose the best of luck.     Shiloh does not have issues with other horses, tends to stay by herself, but is not aggressive.
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MJ

Barb CO

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2016, 12:05:10 pm »

I find this oddly fascinating; yet frustrating because Rose is there and I am here. I only had her for about 2 weeks I think but based on my interactions with her and her progress during that time, I never would've expected her to be this difficult for April and Kysa.
Right now I really don't want anyone to do anymore with her than necessary to get her in a trailer to meet me in the Black Hills. And if that isn't working out safely I'll drive the rest of the way to Brookings to pick her up. Once I get her home I can watch her and figure out what is going on. Yes, she'll be introduced to clicker training because I really need to get her hooves trimmed. Clicker training is the lowest stress way i know to get a horse over fear and so you can do basic husbandry tasks with them. And she'll get bodywork and whatever else she needs. Probably she'll just do a lot of hanging out to start with and watching the other horses interact with me. I'm always surprised how much that helps a scared horse. And then we'll go from there. I'll be very surprised if she doesn't come around quickly but time will tell. I certainly have a number of other resources available if I need them. I do think I will start a journal about Rose here soon. That will be an interesting way to track her progress.
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foxtrotter

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2016, 02:40:17 pm »

 Barb,
   Thinking back to when Shiloh first arrived.  She had only had one owner, she was 9 when I bought her.   I think the move was very hard on her.  I think if I had sold her as my friends suggested (they thought she was crazy) she would have probably been a mess forever.    She is now 16, a number of things have helped her.  She is on Mg, and that really seems to help.  We did the CA work, I never hit her or worked her to death, she learns very fast and seems to want to please, but has always been nervous.  One thing that really helped after the CA training, that I learned on this board, was the 'touch it cue', she has really responded to that and it really has helped her trust me to go up to things she is afraid of etc.   She would run from the clicker training, or hide in the back of the stall.   The touch it cue, didn't involve any noise, just things she was familiar with.   Although, the day she came home, I took a brush and walked into her stall and she flew to the back of the stall and would not come near me.  Shiloh will still on occasion, if I come up to her with something she has not seen before, like a laundry basket,  :) will start to leave until I call her and then she will come up, but nervously.
 Shiloh has come a long way, and I love her to death.  I think Rose will make an excellent horse, and glad you are there to help her be that horse.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 04:53:58 pm by foxtrotter »
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MJ

ponymare

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2016, 02:51:50 pm »

Hope she comes around for you Barb!  I can't wait to hear about your work with her.  Sorry it didn't work out for April but I hope you can help her.
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Barb CO

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Re: The story of Rose
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2016, 05:02:10 pm »

Thanks for all the encouragement! I think I'll be able to figure her out and she'll be fine but we'll see. Maybe she was meant to be my horse instead of April's.  :)
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